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	<title>Comments on: The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 1: the invisible warriors</title>
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	<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/</link>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net &#187; This just in from the Village Women&#8217;s Newswire: US Dollar shall collapse!</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-82447</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net &#187; This just in from the Village Women&#8217;s Newswire: US Dollar shall collapse!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 23:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] working in Turkey, the boys and girls would return to our homeland.” [Ed.: Cf. Annasoltan&#039;s 2010 post on the plight of Turkmen workers in Turkey.] E.H.: “People, if the dollar falls it would not be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] working in Turkey, the boys and girls would return to our homeland.” [Ed.: Cf. Annasoltan&#039;s 2010 post on the plight of Turkmen workers in Turkey.] E.H.: “People, if the dollar falls it would not be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net &#187; Turkmen on the turntables: let the masses be heard?</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-64216</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net &#187; Turkmen on the turntables: let the masses be heard?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] good jobs inside those), and it&#8217;s not easy to go work overseas [Ed.: although many Turkmen do find their way to Turkey]. So, the young generation literally has got nothing to do. Which is why they love Hip Hop. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] good jobs inside those), and it&#8217;s not easy to go work overseas [Ed.: although many Turkmen do find their way to Turkey]. So, the young generation literally has got nothing to do. Which is why they love Hip Hop. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net &#187; Turkmenistan&#8217;s new Muslims, part 1: the müezzin&#8217;s siren song</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-35362</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net &#187; Turkmenistan&#8217;s new Muslims, part 1: the müezzin&#8217;s siren song</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 23:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=9397#comment-35362</guid>
		<description>[...] resurgence. The argument goes that although our country is rich in hydrocarbon resources, the majority of the population lives in deep poverty, therefore, people seek stability through a new, vast social network and a metaphysical guarantee [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] resurgence. The argument goes that although our country is rich in hydrocarbon resources, the majority of the population lives in deep poverty, therefore, people seek stability through a new, vast social network and a metaphysical guarantee [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net » The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 1: the invisible &#8230; &#124; Breaking News 24/7</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24707</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net » The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 1: the invisible &#8230; &#124; Breaking News 24/7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=9397#comment-24707</guid>
		<description>[...] neweurasia.net » The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 1: the invisible &#8230;   Share and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] neweurasia.net » The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 1: the invisible &#8230;   Share and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net &#187; The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 2: the exotic among the exotic</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24689</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net &#187; The hidden flesh of Turkey, part 2: the exotic among the exotic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] my last post I gave the backdrop of the situation for illegal Turkmen immigrants working in Turkey.  Turkmen women in particular, along with Moldavian and Georgian women, have been stigmatized  in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my last post I gave the backdrop of the situation for illegal Turkmen immigrants working in Turkey.  Turkmen women in particular, along with Moldavian and Georgian women, have been stigmatized  in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: uzbe</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24368</link>
		<dc:creator>uzbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i hope you are not mixing up the Turkmen from Iraq and Syria with those Turkmen from Turkmenistan. Although a lot of prostitutes do indeed come from Turkmenistan, there are a lot of Turkmen from Iraq who work in the entertainment business. i dunno whether one makes the other work, but certainly there might be some link. 
also, i dont think that foreigners can make as much as 900 dollars by doing dirty work like construction, cleaning and etc. it is much less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i hope you are not mixing up the Turkmen from Iraq and Syria with those Turkmen from Turkmenistan. Although a lot of prostitutes do indeed come from Turkmenistan, there are a lot of Turkmen from Iraq who work in the entertainment business. i dunno whether one makes the other work, but certainly there might be some link.<br />
also, i dont think that foreigners can make as much as 900 dollars by doing dirty work like construction, cleaning and etc. it is much less.</p>
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		<title>By: Toaf</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24338</link>
		<dc:creator>Toaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=9397#comment-24338</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d better clarify that. Many in Australia are opposed to high levels of migration, legal or otherwise. That&#039;s a view I don&#039;t share. Compared to other nations, though, Australia has a very small number of illegal workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d better clarify that. Many in Australia are opposed to high levels of migration, legal or otherwise. That&#8217;s a view I don&#8217;t share. Compared to other nations, though, Australia has a very small number of illegal workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Toaf</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24337</link>
		<dc:creator>Toaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24329&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Sevket Zaimoglu&lt;/a&gt;, you raise some important issues there, but I am unclear about why you say this post lacks value unless it discusses the situation in other countries, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24329" rel="nofollow">@Sevket Zaimoglu</a>, you raise some important issues there, but I am unclear about why you say this post lacks value unless it discusses the situation in other countries, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Toaf</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24336</link>
		<dc:creator>Toaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=9397#comment-24336</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24316&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Hakan&lt;/a&gt;, I&#039;m in Australia, not the US. And yes, there is certainly a public attitude here that &quot;we don&#039;t want illegal migrants&quot;, too. I don&#039;t hold that view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24316" rel="nofollow">@Hakan</a>, I&#8217;m in Australia, not the US. And yes, there is certainly a public attitude here that &#8220;we don&#8217;t want illegal migrants&#8221;, too. I don&#8217;t hold that view.</p>
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		<title>By: Sevket Zaimoglu</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/business-and-economics/the-hidden-flesh-of-turkey-part-1-the-invisible-warriors/comment-page-1/#comment-24329</link>
		<dc:creator>Sevket Zaimoglu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 04:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=9397#comment-24329</guid>
		<description>Well, in order for this post to have any value at all, I think you must compare the treatment Turkmens face when they travel to Russia, or other &quot;stans&quot; in Central Asia.

There is a central flaw in the post, and that stems from the inability to distinguish between how people treat those working the &quot;dirty jobs&quot; and how people treat members of a specific ethnic group living at the edge of their society. 

Let us first look at the issue from the &quot;demand&quot; side. As long as there is a &quot;market&quot; for prostitutes, drug dealers, mafia thugs, human traffickers, etc, it does not matter if the Turkmens, Armenians, Sudanese, or Chinese do that kind of work. Before 1990, when Turkey was a very closed country, Kurds, Laz, Abhaz, Alevis etc, that is, Turkey&#039;s own ethnic groups did those. OK, maybe ethnicity has no role in this question, because &quot;Turks&quot; (whatever that might mean) from certain localities could well establish solidarity with their folk and build &quot;hemsehri&quot; networks. 

Things do not look much different on the &quot;supply&quot; side. Let&#039;s assume, for some reason, Turkmens stop working in these dirty jobs in Turkey. It could happen due to the police taking stricter measures to crack down on organized crime, it could happen after stricter immigration and visa controls, or it could happen after a highly publicized incident, for example, a bloody street fight between some Turkmen youth and some Turkish youth, making it very difficult for Turkmen to continue working in these jobs. What will happen to those Turkmen? They still need money. If returning to Turkmenistan would have been an option, they would have done it already. Then, these Turkmen will go to another country, perhaps Russia, Dubai, or Poland, I don&#039;t know, and keep doing what they were doing in Turkey. They simply have to.

Let me give another example. Suppose, the Turkish government becomes worried about the plight of illegal Turkmen workers, and wants to do something to make their condition better. It passes a law that bans employing Turkmens below minimum wage. Would such an act improve these Turkmen&#039;s lot? No! Because, then, employing a Turkmen will lose all its attractiveness. Why should someone prefer Turkmen over Turks, when they will both have to be paid the full amount of the minimum wage. So, it is easy to see that if such a law is passed, the end result will be that Turkmens&#039; place in these dirty jobs will simply be taken by other illegal immigrants.

I highly recommend the following article from the Atlantic magazine, on illegal Vietnamese immigrants on Vermont&#039;s dairy farms:
http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/01/the-real-price-of-milk/32833/

My conclusion is that there is never an easy solution to social problems. Back in 1980s, there were many Turkish workers in Saudi Arabia or Libya, working in construction jobs. At that time, these workers could earn more than they could in Turkey, hence they did not mind the difficult working conditions. They had to, there was no other choice. But today, Turkey&#039;s economy has improved, and the country is much more wealthy than it was 20 years ago. Hence, jobs in Saudi Arabia or Dubai has lost all its luster for the Turks. They can earn more money if they stay in Turkey. Have the poor working conditions and low wages ended in the Arab countries? No! The Turkish workers have simply been replaced with workers from India, Indonesia, and Philippines!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in order for this post to have any value at all, I think you must compare the treatment Turkmens face when they travel to Russia, or other &#8220;stans&#8221; in Central Asia.</p>
<p>There is a central flaw in the post, and that stems from the inability to distinguish between how people treat those working the &#8220;dirty jobs&#8221; and how people treat members of a specific ethnic group living at the edge of their society. </p>
<p>Let us first look at the issue from the &#8220;demand&#8221; side. As long as there is a &#8220;market&#8221; for prostitutes, drug dealers, mafia thugs, human traffickers, etc, it does not matter if the Turkmens, Armenians, Sudanese, or Chinese do that kind of work. Before 1990, when Turkey was a very closed country, Kurds, Laz, Abhaz, Alevis etc, that is, Turkey&#8217;s own ethnic groups did those. OK, maybe ethnicity has no role in this question, because &#8220;Turks&#8221; (whatever that might mean) from certain localities could well establish solidarity with their folk and build &#8220;hemsehri&#8221; networks. </p>
<p>Things do not look much different on the &#8220;supply&#8221; side. Let&#8217;s assume, for some reason, Turkmens stop working in these dirty jobs in Turkey. It could happen due to the police taking stricter measures to crack down on organized crime, it could happen after stricter immigration and visa controls, or it could happen after a highly publicized incident, for example, a bloody street fight between some Turkmen youth and some Turkish youth, making it very difficult for Turkmen to continue working in these jobs. What will happen to those Turkmen? They still need money. If returning to Turkmenistan would have been an option, they would have done it already. Then, these Turkmen will go to another country, perhaps Russia, Dubai, or Poland, I don&#8217;t know, and keep doing what they were doing in Turkey. They simply have to.</p>
<p>Let me give another example. Suppose, the Turkish government becomes worried about the plight of illegal Turkmen workers, and wants to do something to make their condition better. It passes a law that bans employing Turkmens below minimum wage. Would such an act improve these Turkmen&#8217;s lot? No! Because, then, employing a Turkmen will lose all its attractiveness. Why should someone prefer Turkmen over Turks, when they will both have to be paid the full amount of the minimum wage. So, it is easy to see that if such a law is passed, the end result will be that Turkmens&#8217; place in these dirty jobs will simply be taken by other illegal immigrants.</p>
<p>I highly recommend the following article from the Atlantic magazine, on illegal Vietnamese immigrants on Vermont&#8217;s dairy farms:<br />
<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/01/the-real-price-of-milk/32833/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/01/the-real-price-of-milk/32833/</a></p>
<p>My conclusion is that there is never an easy solution to social problems. Back in 1980s, there were many Turkish workers in Saudi Arabia or Libya, working in construction jobs. At that time, these workers could earn more than they could in Turkey, hence they did not mind the difficult working conditions. They had to, there was no other choice. But today, Turkey&#8217;s economy has improved, and the country is much more wealthy than it was 20 years ago. Hence, jobs in Saudi Arabia or Dubai has lost all its luster for the Turks. They can earn more money if they stay in Turkey. Have the poor working conditions and low wages ended in the Arab countries? No! The Turkish workers have simply been replaced with workers from India, Indonesia, and Philippines!</p>
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