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	<title>Comments on: Muslim punks are just punks: Muslims in Europe and America</title>
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	<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/</link>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-34598</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-34598</guid>
		<description>Nothwestern Europe was at its zenith politically and economically on the eve of World War 1. After World War 2, it was a mere political vassal of the US. Before I go into a more extensive answer, who or what do you mean with &#039;Muslims of moderation&#039;? Personalities like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Ehsan Jami, the house negroes of the neocons?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothwestern Europe was at its zenith politically and economically on the eve of World War 1. After World War 2, it was a mere political vassal of the US. Before I go into a more extensive answer, who or what do you mean with &#8216;Muslims of moderation&#8217;? Personalities like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Ehsan Jami, the house negroes of the neocons?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg M</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-34597</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-34597</guid>
		<description>Terms like &quot;terminally decadent&quot; and &quot;strong ideological project&quot; make me smile and smack of an academic disconnect with reality. Modern Europe is nothing like the Roman Empire in the fourth and fifth centuries and Slavs and Muslims are not to be associated in this context. I am Czech and my family came to America and assimilated without any ideological projects except gratitude to a new country. Let&#039;s take terminally decadent first. Western Europe is at its zenith politically and economically. More people enjoy more freedoms and a higher standard of living than at any time in its history. People on the &quot;outside&quot; still want part of that wealth and now freedom that they cannot get where they are. If you see this as decadence then you are in the vast minority. Most of humanity desires these things, thus the surge from the 3rd world to the 1st. Now for this Ideological Project that &quot;at least&quot; Muslims have. That can be nothing other than the Muslim desire to destroy any and all other value systems...plain and simple. Those Muslims invited to Western Europe for jobs (which they gladly accepted to stop living in tents and mud huts) should be thankful to live in a free society. Instead, they whine, riot, vandalize and create violent zones in Euopean cities where Sharia terrorizes Muslims of moderation. That is their Ideological Project. The same as it&#039;s been since the violence started by your &quot;Rightly-guided Caliphs.&quot; The only reason these Muslims have been able to cause the havoc they do is because of the freedoms granted in Western Europe. Which makes the actions of Muslims there all the more despicable. Europeans and Americans are getting sick of Muslim problems and arrogance. When the storm comes Muslims will have no one to blame but themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terms like &#8220;terminally decadent&#8221; and &#8220;strong ideological project&#8221; make me smile and smack of an academic disconnect with reality. Modern Europe is nothing like the Roman Empire in the fourth and fifth centuries and Slavs and Muslims are not to be associated in this context. I am Czech and my family came to America and assimilated without any ideological projects except gratitude to a new country. Let&#8217;s take terminally decadent first. Western Europe is at its zenith politically and economically. More people enjoy more freedoms and a higher standard of living than at any time in its history. People on the &#8220;outside&#8221; still want part of that wealth and now freedom that they cannot get where they are. If you see this as decadence then you are in the vast minority. Most of humanity desires these things, thus the surge from the 3rd world to the 1st. Now for this Ideological Project that &#8220;at least&#8221; Muslims have. That can be nothing other than the Muslim desire to destroy any and all other value systems&#8230;plain and simple. Those Muslims invited to Western Europe for jobs (which they gladly accepted to stop living in tents and mud huts) should be thankful to live in a free society. Instead, they whine, riot, vandalize and create violent zones in Euopean cities where Sharia terrorizes Muslims of moderation. That is their Ideological Project. The same as it&#8217;s been since the violence started by your &#8220;Rightly-guided Caliphs.&#8221; The only reason these Muslims have been able to cause the havoc they do is because of the freedoms granted in Western Europe. Which makes the actions of Muslims there all the more despicable. Europeans and Americans are getting sick of Muslim problems and arrogance. When the storm comes Muslims will have no one to blame but themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-34536</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-34536</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-34527&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Greg M&lt;/a&gt;, Modern Europe is what the Western Roman Empire was in the fouth and fifth centuries ad: terminally decadent. The Muslims and Slavs are what the Germanic tribes were back then, with the difference that Muslims at least have a strong ideological project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-34527" rel="nofollow">@Greg M</a>, Modern Europe is what the Western Roman Empire was in the fouth and fifth centuries ad: terminally decadent. The Muslims and Slavs are what the Germanic tribes were back then, with the difference that Muslims at least have a strong ideological project.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg M</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-34527</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 01:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-34527</guid>
		<description>This is a thoughtful analysis of a difficult situation. My only concern is that your solution is that Europeans are the ones that need to change. I disagree. European countries have long histories and struggles of their own. They should have pride in their culture and have every right to define what it means to be French or Dutch. The fact that Muslims enter their country and demand changes is arrogant and intolerable. Frankly, Muslims of this ilk are the biggest problem and threat the Free World faces today. 

Europe should give these people a choice. Leave or conform. It is a blessing that they don&#039;t have the same overly liberal views of the UK and their immigrants. I hope that all Continental Nations come to their senses and deport the Muslims that will not assimilate. If they want to live in Muslim countries with Sharia law --- they can go back where they came from. The sooner the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a thoughtful analysis of a difficult situation. My only concern is that your solution is that Europeans are the ones that need to change. I disagree. European countries have long histories and struggles of their own. They should have pride in their culture and have every right to define what it means to be French or Dutch. The fact that Muslims enter their country and demand changes is arrogant and intolerable. Frankly, Muslims of this ilk are the biggest problem and threat the Free World faces today. </p>
<p>Europe should give these people a choice. Leave or conform. It is a blessing that they don&#8217;t have the same overly liberal views of the UK and their immigrants. I hope that all Continental Nations come to their senses and deport the Muslims that will not assimilate. If they want to live in Muslim countries with Sharia law &#8212; they can go back where they came from. The sooner the better.</p>
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		<title>By: neweurasia.net &#187; Marxist mysticism, pragmatist idolatries, and other reasons to ask whether religions are ever truly free, part 2</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-21137</link>
		<dc:creator>neweurasia.net &#187; Marxist mysticism, pragmatist idolatries, and other reasons to ask whether religions are ever truly free, part 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-21137</guid>
		<description>[...] leads me to the subject of Europe.  I find it remarkable that the governments there wag their fingers at Turkmenistan and others [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leads me to the subject of Europe.  I find it remarkable that the governments there wag their fingers at Turkmenistan and others [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Muslim punks are just punks: Muslims in Europe and America &#171; Christopher Schwartz&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-17010</link>
		<dc:creator>Muslim punks are just punks: Muslims in Europe and America &#171; Christopher Schwartz&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-17010</guid>
		<description>[...] this editorial, originally published on neweurasia, I explore the differences, as I perceive them, between the American and European Islamic [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this editorial, originally published on neweurasia, I explore the differences, as I perceive them, between the American and European Islamic [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-16757</link>
		<dc:creator>Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-16757</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-16753&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Turgai Sangar&lt;/a&gt;, your first paragraph I most certainly agree with, although I think that on the fringes of European society there are new spiritual and political movements with fresh things to say.  

As to the problem of &quot;integration&quot;, yes, I agree there&#039;s no clear sense of the concept, and what exists at the popular level, as in the United States, tends to be an ethnocentric model.*  At an institutional level, however, we see some ideas, although much of its wisdom is debatable (I, for one, am against implementing shariah as a separate civil code).  

Agree or disagree with the specifics, the point is not all Europeans are Pim Fortuyn (and even he wasn&#039;t Pim Fortuyn).  People here are actively confronting the issue after a long time of ignoring it.

As to the issue of European women and emancipation, well, that&#039;s a whole other bag of worms.  I see Islam and the West as having contending ideas about the definition of emancipation.  The question is whether the two ideas can be bridged or reconciled.

*Digression: to be fair, a neo-conservative response would be to say that of course the model is ethnocentric; these were, after all, &quot;our homes first&quot;.  That&#039;s arguable historically, but even if we take it as face-value true, in an increasingly globalized world it&#039;s a backward-looking view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-16753" rel="nofollow">@Turgai Sangar</a>, your first paragraph I most certainly agree with, although I think that on the fringes of European society there are new spiritual and political movements with fresh things to say.  </p>
<p>As to the problem of &#8220;integration&#8221;, yes, I agree there&#8217;s no clear sense of the concept, and what exists at the popular level, as in the United States, tends to be an ethnocentric model.*  At an institutional level, however, we see some ideas, although much of its wisdom is debatable (I, for one, am against implementing shariah as a separate civil code).  </p>
<p>Agree or disagree with the specifics, the point is not all Europeans are Pim Fortuyn (and even he wasn&#8217;t Pim Fortuyn).  People here are actively confronting the issue after a long time of ignoring it.</p>
<p>As to the issue of European women and emancipation, well, that&#8217;s a whole other bag of worms.  I see Islam and the West as having contending ideas about the definition of emancipation.  The question is whether the two ideas can be bridged or reconciled.</p>
<p>*Digression: to be fair, a neo-conservative response would be to say that of course the model is ethnocentric; these were, after all, &#8220;our homes first&#8221;.  That&#8217;s arguable historically, but even if we take it as face-value true, in an increasingly globalized world it&#8217;s a backward-looking view.</p>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-16753</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-16753</guid>
		<description>Good piece. Look, what happens is that native European societies struggle with their identity themselves even more so than Muslim immigrants do. Christianity and Socialism, which for long and for many were not only sources of identity but also of a social network, are all but gone. Instead came... what? Bland consumerism, social unraveling, selfishness and rampant profiteering, and a tyranny of hedonism and empty &#039;fun&#039; that comes to a new form of slavery. 

Is thàt &#039;the example&#039;?! On top of that, there is no clear sense of what &#039;integration&#039; means. What is often meant is, that Muslims are supposed to become a &#039;clone native&#039;, in sort a caricature of the savage who learned &#039;good manners&#039;. In  this mindset, people of Muslim and other &#039;exotic&#039; background do are tolerated, as long as they remain entertainment or stay in a position of submission.

As for &#039;hating women&#039;: many so-called emancipated European women hate themselves and each other and are first of all their own problem. And this sudden interest and fetish cause among some to &#039;save Muslim women from Islamic tyranny&#039; is awash with hypocrisy and old colonial sm fantasms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good piece. Look, what happens is that native European societies struggle with their identity themselves even more so than Muslim immigrants do. Christianity and Socialism, which for long and for many were not only sources of identity but also of a social network, are all but gone. Instead came&#8230; what? Bland consumerism, social unraveling, selfishness and rampant profiteering, and a tyranny of hedonism and empty &#8216;fun&#8217; that comes to a new form of slavery. </p>
<p>Is thàt &#8216;the example&#8217;?! On top of that, there is no clear sense of what &#8216;integration&#8217; means. What is often meant is, that Muslims are supposed to become a &#8216;clone native&#8217;, in sort a caricature of the savage who learned &#8216;good manners&#8217;. In  this mindset, people of Muslim and other &#8216;exotic&#8217; background do are tolerated, as long as they remain entertainment or stay in a position of submission.</p>
<p>As for &#8216;hating women&#8217;: many so-called emancipated European women hate themselves and each other and are first of all their own problem. And this sudden interest and fetish cause among some to &#8216;save Muslim women from Islamic tyranny&#8217; is awash with hypocrisy and old colonial sm fantasms.</p>
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		<title>By: Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://www.neweurasia.net/cross-regional-and-blogosphere/muslim-punks-are-just-punks-muslims-in-europe-and-america/comment-page-1/#comment-16688</link>
		<dc:creator>Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neweurasia.net/?p=7024#comment-16688</guid>
		<description>I just want to be clear about one thing: when I say that Obama is of &quot;Islamic descent&quot; I don&#039;t mean that he &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a Muslim but rather of Muslim &lt;em&gt;heritage&lt;/em&gt;.  He is a practicing Christian and not, as many conspiracy theorists would have us believe, a &quot;crypto-Muslim&quot;.

Moreover, regarding the European ethnic nation-state, I&#039;m presenting a certain point of view.  Perhaps saying that it should be &quot;abandoned&quot; is too strong.  I am not advocating the downfall or overthrow of current European governments.  Rather, I&#039;m saying that contemporary European societies are ideologically ill-suited to handle large-scale Islamic immigration: their long-term stability necessitates that they reform their core self-conceptions.

Is the American model therefore the &quot;best&quot;?  Definitely not.  For example, although European societies have difficulty coping with difference &lt;em&gt;within&lt;/em&gt; their borders, they are so far much better at adapting to globalization than the United States.  Their almost pathological ignorance of Islamic culture at home does not stop Europeans from becoming masters of Islamic culture abroad.  Conversely, America often feels like an ape groping blindly in the dark.

Moreover, the American model, like the European model, is based around an increasingly antiquated and static conception of statehood.  Ironically, the best model for a globalized world may not be that of either America or Europe, but of the classical Islamic &lt;em&gt;umma&lt;/em&gt;. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to be clear about one thing: when I say that Obama is of &#8220;Islamic descent&#8221; I don&#8217;t mean that he <em>is</em> a Muslim but rather of Muslim <em>heritage</em>.  He is a practicing Christian and not, as many conspiracy theorists would have us believe, a &#8220;crypto-Muslim&#8221;.</p>
<p>Moreover, regarding the European ethnic nation-state, I&#8217;m presenting a certain point of view.  Perhaps saying that it should be &#8220;abandoned&#8221; is too strong.  I am not advocating the downfall or overthrow of current European governments.  Rather, I&#8217;m saying that contemporary European societies are ideologically ill-suited to handle large-scale Islamic immigration: their long-term stability necessitates that they reform their core self-conceptions.</p>
<p>Is the American model therefore the &#8220;best&#8221;?  Definitely not.  For example, although European societies have difficulty coping with difference <em>within</em> their borders, they are so far much better at adapting to globalization than the United States.  Their almost pathological ignorance of Islamic culture at home does not stop Europeans from becoming masters of Islamic culture abroad.  Conversely, America often feels like an ape groping blindly in the dark.</p>
<p>Moreover, the American model, like the European model, is based around an increasingly antiquated and static conception of statehood.  Ironically, the best model for a globalized world may not be that of either America or Europe, but of the classical Islamic <em>umma</em>. ;-)</p>
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